Important news regarding future YUI development

[David Lawrence]

Unfortunately it seems Yahoo is taking a different direction and all development work
on YUI has stopped effective immediately. They state that only target fixes will be
made which I assume just means security fixes if that.

http://yahooeng.tumblr.com/post/96098168666/important-announcement-regarding-yui

This obviously has some impact on our future plans to continue using YUI with Bugzilla
and our work on migrating to version 3. I suppose we should discuss on what we should
do going forward with those plans.

Since we are not too far along yet, we could redirect our efforts to something else
that is robust and well maintained such as jQuery or others. Or take a different
approach and use several different more focused JS libraries depending on what the
needs of the function of Bugzilla.

Thoughts?

dkl

[Damien]

bootstrap + jquery.

Post by David Lawrence
Unfortunately it seems Yahoo is taking a different direction and all development work
on YUI has stopped effective immediately. They state that only target fixes will be
made which I assume just means security fixes if that.
http://yahooeng.tumblr.com/post/96098168666/important-announcement-regarding-yui
This obviously has some impact on our future plans to continue using YUI with Bugzilla
and our work on migrating to version 3. I suppose we should discuss on what we should
do going forward with those plans.
Since we are not too far along yet, we could redirect our efforts to something else
that is robust and well maintained such as jQuery or others. Or take a different
approach and use several different more focused JS libraries depending on what the
needs of the function of Bugzilla.
Thoughts?
dkl
--
David Lawrence
-

[Guy Pyrzak]

Considering how much the landscape has changed I would recommend the
project consider adding jasmine/mocha and karma to enable ui unit tests.
Require.js might also make sense to enable better loading of files.

+1 for bootstrap/foundation + jquery

Post by Damien
bootstrap + jquery.

Post by David Lawrence
Unfortunately it seems Yahoo is taking a different direction and all development work
on YUI has stopped effective immediately. They state that only target fixes will be
made which I assume just means security fixes if that.
http://yahooeng.tumblr.com/post/96098168666/important-announcement-regarding-yui
This obviously has some impact on our future plans to continue using YUI with Bugzilla
and our work on migrating to version 3. I suppose we should discuss on what we should
do going forward with those plans.
Since we are not too far along yet, we could redirect our efforts to something else
that is robust and well maintained such as jQuery or others. Or take a different
approach and use several different more focused JS libraries depending on what the
needs of the function of Bugzilla.
Thoughts?
dkl
--
David Lawrence
-

[Byron Jones]

Post by David Lawrence
Unfortunately it seems Yahoo is taking a different direction and all development work
on YUI has stopped effective immediately.
http://yahooeng.tumblr.com/post/96098168666/important-announcement-regarding-yui

that's a shame :(

Post by David Lawrence
Since we are not too far along yet

unfortunately this isn't accurate. while there isn't work ready to
commit, significant effort has been put into the yui3 migration, and
there's already a lot of work against that branch.

that said, i think it would be wise to shelf that work, and instead move to jquery.


before we start throwing frameworks at the list and hope one of them stick, i think it would be prudent to first document our requirements. thankfully we make very sparten use of yui, and the gsoc yui3 project work can be used roadmap towards js/template that will need to be touched once a framework and plugins are chosen.

here's my start:

requirements:
- jquery based
- compatible license (foss)
- cross-browser support
- wai/aria support
- localisation support

widgets/plugins:
- data tables/grids with ajax support
- auto-completion with ajax support
- calendar

[Emmanuel Seyman]

Post by Byron Jones
that's a shame :(

+1

Post by Byron Jones
that said, i think it would be wise to shelf that work, and instead move to jquery.

Unless there's a massive amount of work left to be done, I'ld prefer we
move to yui3. It might not have a lot going for it but, at least, it's
maintained, unlike yui 2.x .

Emmanuel
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[Byron Jones]

Post by Emmanuel Seyman

Post by Byron Jones
that said, i think it would be wise to shelf that work, and instead move to jquery.

Unless there's a massive amount of work left to be done, I'ld prefer we
move to yui3. It might not have a lot going for it but, at least, it's
maintained, unlike yui 2.x .

i honestly don't think moving to a platform which has already been
announced as deprecated would be a good idea.
yui3 will die a slow death, and we'd be left, yet again, using an old
technology that nobody wants to work with (see also: bzr).

-glob
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[David Marshall]

Post by Byron Jones

Post by Emmanuel Seyman

Post by Byron Jones
that said, i think it would be wise to shelf that work, and instead
move to jquery.

Unless there's a massive amount of work left to be done, I'ld prefer we
move to yui3. It might not have a lot going for it but, at least, it's
maintained, unlike yui 2.x .

i honestly don't think moving to a platform which has already been
announced as deprecated would be a good idea.
yui3 will die a slow death, and we'd be left, yet again, using an old
technology that nobody wants to work with (see also: bzr).

I don't disagree that Bugzilla may quite reasonably move to a YUI alternative, but it's not quite accurate to describe YUI as deprecated. All that's been said is that Yahoo employees won't be spending their time doing new YUI 3 development. There's a developer community apart from Yahoo employees, and it is ultimately they who will determine the relevance of YUI going forward.
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[Dave Miller]

Post by David Marshall
I don't disagree that Bugzilla may quite reasonably move to a YUI alternative, but it's not quite accurate to describe YUI as deprecated. All that's been said is that Yahoo employees won't be spending their time doing new YUI 3 development. There's a developer community apart from Yahoo employees, and it is ultimately they who will determine the relevance of YUI going forward.

I was going to mention this, too. The announcement reads very much like
Mozilla's announcement that it was dropping Thunderbird development.
Thunderbird is still very much alive, just Mozilla isn't paying
developers to work on it anymore.

[Gervase Markham]

Post by Dave Miller
I was going to mention this, too. The announcement reads very much like
Mozilla's announcement that it was dropping Thunderbird development.
Thunderbird is still very much alive, just Mozilla isn't paying
developers to work on it anymore.

That is so. And how that plays out does depend on how strong their
non-Yahoo community is.

However, choice of desktop email software and choice of web framework
are not the same. The web moves fast; email, not so much. We ideally
want to use something would-be developers of Bugzilla are familiar with,
whereas it doesn't matter much at all to you what email client I use,
and it doesn't matter to me what you use.

We are also about to make the effort of a transition, and it does make
sense not to transition to something which has already been put into
"maintenance mode" in a fast-moving space, and of which knowledge among
potential developers is inevitably going to decrease.

Gerv
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[Mark Côté]

Post by Gervase Markham

Post by Dave Miller
I was going to mention this, too. The announcement reads very much like
Mozilla's announcement that it was dropping Thunderbird development.
Thunderbird is still very much alive, just Mozilla isn't paying
developers to work on it anymore.

That is so. And how that plays out does depend on how strong their
non-Yahoo community is.
However, choice of desktop email software and choice of web framework
are not the same. The web moves fast; email, not so much. We ideally
want to use something would-be developers of Bugzilla are familiar with,
whereas it doesn't matter much at all to you what email client I use,
and it doesn't matter to me what you use.
We are also about to make the effort of a transition, and it does make
sense not to transition to something which has already been put into
"maintenance mode" in a fast-moving space, and of which knowledge among
potential developers is inevitably going to decrease.

I agree with Gerv on all points. No, YUI isn't going away right now,
but I would bet that it will follow the path of Bazaar, and slowly lose
its user base and thus people with any knowledge of and experience with
it. As Gerv pointed out, we're at the point where we either have to put
more effort into the YUI3 conversion to finish it, or we use what
lessons we learned there and move to a system that has much less
likelihood of vanishing. We already decided that moving from Bazaar to
git was a good idea for a number of reasons, despite Bazaar not being
entirely abandoned, so I think similar reasoning should apply here.

Mark
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Mark Côté
Assistant Project Lead, Bugzilla
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[Gervase Markham]

Post by Byron Jones
i honestly don't think moving to a platform which has already been
announced as deprecated would be a good idea.
yui3 will die a slow death, and we'd be left, yet again, using an old
technology that nobody wants to work with (see also: bzr).

I agree with this. YUI wasn't all that popular even when it was
supported. I'm a Bugzilla developer, and I haven't bothered to learn it :-)

I would certainly back a process where we stepped back and looked at
where things are now in client side web development best practice and
where they are going. This should be led by someone who had already
heard of Grunt, Broccoli, Gulp, Backbone, React, Ember, Polymer,
Angular, Mocha, Casper and Karma before reading the YUI announcement! (I
hadn't heard of most of them - perhaps that's just me, though.)

Gerv


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[Byron Jones]

Post by Gervase Markham
I would certainly back a process where we stepped back and looked at
where things are now in client side web development best practice and
where they are going. This should be led by someone who had already
heard of Grunt, Broccoli, Gulp, Backbone, React, Ember, Polymer,
Angular, Mocha, Casper and Karma before reading the YUI announcement! (I
hadn't heard of most of them - perhaps that's just me, though.)

most of those aren't relevant to bugzilla (task runner, client-side
asset builder, build system, testing, complete frameworks, ...).

modern javascript web development generally doesn't mesh well with large
legacy applications, and i'm concerned that taking a step back at this
stage to evaluate a large rewrite of the UI would not result in timely
decision.

our immediate need is to determine if we should continue the yui3 path,
or move to a jquery based widget library.
if we decide to move to jquery, then we should be talking about widget
libraries, not wholesale rewrites.

[Guy Pyrzak]

To help clarify.

Mocha, qunit, and jasmine are all for testing JavaScript. Mockjax, Sinon
would help with that. These are framework/library independent and could be
used with yui3, bootstrap, or jquery ui.

The fact that Bugzilla has JavaScript code that has no testing code
associated with it ( other than selenium scripts) is something that should
be considered and corrected.

I agree that Angular, React, Polymer, ember, gulp, grunt or broccoli are
not as worth while as they are frameworks or node.js dependent.

-Guy

Post by Gervase Markham
I would certainly back a process where we stepped back and looked at
where things are now in client side web development best practice and
where they are going. This should be led by someone who had already
heard of Grunt, Broccoli, Gulp, Backbone, React, Ember, Polymer,
Angular, Mocha, Casper and Karma before reading the YUI announcement! (I
hadn't heard of most of them - perhaps that's just me, though.)
most of those aren't relevant to bugzilla (task runner, client-side asset
builder, build system, testing, complete frameworks, ...).
modern javascript web development generally doesn't mesh well with large
legacy applications, and i'm concerned that taking a step back at this
stage to evaluate a large rewrite of the UI would not result in timely
decision.
our immediate need is to determine if we should continue the yui3 path, or
move to a jquery based widget library.
if we decide to move to jquery, then we should be talking about widget
libraries, not wholesale rewrites.
--
byron jones - :glob - bugzilla.mozilla.org team -

[Damien]

... actually, node.js could be used to serve REST APIs.
There is much less value in a MV* framework when the rest api is lacking;
so yes, Angular and friends wouldn't have as much value. What do I mean? I
mean that my experience as a bugzilla user is that one big page is loaded,
that sometimes I get iframes for searching duplicate bugs, but other than
that you cannot do everything from one page. Where are all the fragments?
That is a different discussion though.

How about the stakeholders put a criteria list forward to help pick the UI
framework? Things like accessibility for example should not be discounted.

Post by Guy Pyrzak
To help clarify.
Mocha, qunit, and jasmine are all for testing JavaScript. Mockjax, Sinon
would help with that. These are framework/library independent and could be
used with yui3, bootstrap, or jquery ui.
The fact that Bugzilla has JavaScript code that has no testing code
associated with it ( other than selenium scripts) is something that should
be considered and corrected.
I agree that Angular, React, Polymer, ember, gulp, grunt or broccoli are
not as worth while as they are frameworks or node.js dependent.
-Guy

Post by Gervase Markham
I would certainly back a process where we stepped back and looked at
where things are now in client side web development best practice and
where they are going. This should be led by someone who had already
heard of Grunt, Broccoli, Gulp, Backbone, React, Ember, Polymer,
Angular, Mocha, Casper and Karma before reading the YUI announcement! (I
hadn't heard of most of them - perhaps that's just me, though.)
most of those aren't relevant to bugzilla (task runner, client-side
asset builder, build system, testing, complete frameworks, ...).
modern javascript web development generally doesn't mesh well with large
legacy applications, and i'm concerned that taking a step back at this
stage to evaluate a large rewrite of the UI would not result in timely
decision.
our immediate need is to determine if we should continue the yui3 path,
or move to a jquery based widget library.
if we decide to move to jquery, then we should be talking about widget
libraries, not wholesale rewrites.
--
byron jones - :glob - bugzilla.mozilla.org team -

[Mark Côté]

Post by Byron Jones
- data tables/grids with ajax support

http://datatables.net/

Post by Byron Jones
- auto-completion with ajax support

http://jqueryui.com/autocomplete/ (part of jQuery UI)

Post by Byron Jones
- calendar

http://jqueryui.com/datepicker/ (also part of jQuery UI)

Mark
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Assistant Project Lead, Bugzilla
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